|
|
| Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 0 post(s) |
Forum Guy
   |
Posted - 2010.11.16 06:09:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Forum Guy on 16/11/2010 06:09:27
I've never seen any of these arguments over learning skills ever give a good reason to keep them.
Still waiting, probably until hell freezes over.
I've come to the conclusion that a lot of people that play this game go out of their way to make things as long and tedious as possible. Hence they like learning skills which of course are totally unnecessary but hey they are great time wasters so must be ok, go figure.
|
Forum Guy
|
Posted - 2010.11.16 23:47:00 -
[2]
This is my experience as the system is now.
Background:
Played on and off since 2005 (4 accounts), only 1 account active which is a new account so started a character afresh. New character now has over 3 mill sp.
My experience this time around:
Created character and completed the training missions for the books and ships. Decided to boost training with a set of +4 imps so purchased a pair of PLEX and sold them for isk on the ingame market (330 mill each back then). At this time I was using several agents of level 1. Level 1 missions get boring quick as they are a bit too easy even without much in the way of skills.
Decided I'd train the learning skills so started to just log on just to change skills and while I was waiting I'd play another MMO. Been logging on just to change skills (not just learning skills)for over 6 weeks now. So now when I log in I find that I'm still just changing skills with occassionally a quick chat and log out again. This seems to have become a habit as it's much harder to pick-up on a character than it is if you've been playing it uninterrupted from the start.
The problem with the learning skills has been made worse with the new character creation system. Saying that I still think the learning skills are totally unnecessary.
So you might ask why I'm telling you this. Well that is because I think there's a lot of people who have had and are having similar experiences. Trouble with just logging on to change skills and not playing the character is you tend to lose any form of identity (connection) with the character. Which of course can lead to eventually just not bothering with it.
|
Forum Guy
|
Posted - 2010.11.17 07:52:00 -
[3]
 Originally by: Elu Arina
Originally by: Ravenal
Originally by: Elu Arina
Yes, because EVE is about nothing but the accumulation of skill points. In fact, you might be interested in stop watches; those are good at keeping track of lots of numbers.
Right, I propose you stop training your characters and then take stock on how you feel about the worth of skill training.
Go even further than that... start a new character and never accumulate skill points.
My point appears to have been missed. I'm not implying that skill points are worth nothing. Too many people have been replying that they set their skill queues to nothing but learning skills for a few months at the start of a character to get them out of the way. Furthermore, they argue that this makes them lose interest in the game and then blame that on CCP. This is not an issue with the skill system it's an issue with people who refuse to do things in a suboptimal manner. The ironic thing is that by nature of the skill system, you will be suboptimal at everything for quite some time, regardless of whether you train the learning skills. Are you going to wait for perfect piloting skills before you get in your Ibis?
They blame it on CCP and rightly so. People (most people) will try to work in an efficient and organised way hence will try to do the learning skills first because they know the importance of the learning skills as far as the system stands at the moment (although as I've said before they are totally unnecessary). People don't naturally try to work in the most inefficient and artificially drawn out way.
Before the current character creation you at least could make a trading character that had some good trading skills from the start, now you don't even start with any game trading skills. The fighting and mining are only minimal from the start now too, making the learning skills even more important from the start than they were before.
I think they went for the basic approach to try and make their training missions more important.
Bottom line is though, CCP got it wrong and I think they know it.
|
Forum Guy
|
Posted - 2010.11.17 10:23:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Orion GUardian
The main point of the OP is ignored still:
He told you reasons why he would like Learning skills to go, why he dislikes them and why they serve no real purpose in th game (are not needed)
Everyone replying a "you are wrong" just replied to his arguments:
INSTEAD: Would you please name a few rational reasons or arguments whyLearning skills should remain as they are? And I do not mean all the conservative phrases that state why they shouldn't be removed but why they are a good thing!
I can't think of any reason why they are a good thing.
I think they were originally ingame just to extend the training skill tree length. And CCP compounded the error when they added the rank 3 learning skills.
|
Forum Guy
|
Posted - 2010.11.17 10:39:00 -
[5]
Edited by: Forum Guy on 17/11/2010 10:42:18
Edited by: Forum Guy on 17/11/2010 10:39:55
Originally by: AterraX
It's simple.
Learnings skills offers a choice.
EvE is all about the choices you make.
That's your error right there. If anyone has half a brain then they would realise learning skills are not a choice but are really compulsary at least up to level 4 rank 3. Level 4 to 5 on rank 3 gives only a small benefit for the amount of time put in (larger over a long time frame) so that you could argue, as being a choice.
|
Forum Guy
|
Posted - 2010.11.17 13:42:00 -
[6]
Edited by: Forum Guy on 17/11/2010 13:44:02
Originally by: Black Dranzer
I originally made this thread to hear new arguments. I really haven't; Half the retorts I'm reading here are light rephrases of points I explicitly covered in the original post. The rest are opinions.
All I really want to leave here is an anecdote.
I read of an experiment, a while back. It was designed to test when children started gaining the ability to look into the long term. The basic premise was this: They tell the child, here is a chocolate bar. You have two choices: Either you can wait for five minutes, and have the whole thing, or you can have a small piece of it right away, but that's all you get.
The results showed that after a certain age, all of the children would wait the whole five minutes. You want to know what that turning point was?
Four years old.
Very interesting, although not very helpful for the subject you initially raised.
Patience for the sake of patience is pointless. Having patience by paying a sub for a game where your character is needlessly training something that does not need to be in the game is also pointless.
So people have a choice to be patient and try and get through the learning skills or go play something else.
Anyway I don't think the argument is about people having patience or not. It's more about having to train something near the start of the game that does not even need to be in the game, when you could be training something more useful to develop your character.
|
Forum Guy
|
Posted - 2010.11.17 14:30:00 -
[7]
Edited by: Forum Guy on 17/11/2010 14:34:10
Originally by: Bernard Schuyler
You also seem to be under the assumption that just because something is good for everyone, they should just give it to everyone. If you got your wish, people would next be crying that everyone should have +5 Implants for free. They benefit everyone.
Seems to me you are making the assumption that if learning skills were removed people would ask for more. Learning skills have been argued about for a long time now but not seen much about implants. With implants there's only cybernetics to train and most people stick to +4s anyway unless they put +5s on a jump clone to train with when not playing. Implants are fine as they are nothing really needs to be done there.
Originally by: Bernard Schuyler
The biggest argument for leaving things alone is it ain't broke so don't fix it.
With the amount of bad feeling over learning skills it obviously is broke, so from your quote it obviously needs fixing.
|
Forum Guy
|
Posted - 2010.11.17 15:28:00 -
[8]
Originally by: AterraX
Originally by: Forum Guy
So people have a choice to be patient and try and get through the learning skills or go play something else (this will hopefully change in time).
This is false, I had lot of fun in EvE...even while skilling up my learning skills.
So if I can...so can others...they just need to HTFU, whine less..and play the fracking game.
What is next?
Nerf impants...because +5 implants cost to much for new players? 
It's not false you as an individual got through it and others do too, but it also puts a lot of players off.
What's more important training a load of learning skills that don't need to be in the game and when training those you can't train anything else at the same time.
Or, training skills that are going to help you get more out of the game at an early stage and make it a more rewarding experience. Like be able to get that Hulk a little sooner if you are into mining. Or get some skills for doing level 2 and 3 missions or even PvP skills.
I don't think for most people it's a sense of achievement that they get after completing the learning skills, for me it was more a sense of relief.
|
Forum Guy
|
Posted - 2010.11.17 16:19:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Bernard Schuyler
Originally by: Orion GUardian
That on the other hand is no real argument here. Even CCP admitted that learning skills were a bad idea. And "not broken" is the perception of one part of the community.
Sandbox: Again, Eve is a PvP game on all sides of the game. So the Learning skills are mandatory to remain competetive unless you plan jsut to train one specific thing and then stop. For example a Cyno alt....
Perception is relative as you point out. There is another thread in this forum where a guy wants to just pay ISK for instant SP. Everyone has an opinion. As far as Learning skills being a "bad idea" they could just as easily remove Learning skills and everyone trainst slower.
Your "competitive" argument remains a completely false analogy. SP in and of itself measures nothing except age and epeen. Joe can have 100m SP and Bill can have 50m SP... If they are both in a Drake with every Drake affecting skill at 5 then the extra 50m that Joe has in Lasers or Mining or whatever are completely irrelevent to their respective "competitiveness."
The rate of SP gain is ONLY related to the desire of Players to be able to do whatever it is they set their hearts on (be it fly a particular ship, etc) sooner rather than later. Everything else is just smoke.
Guess you've never browsed the Recruitment Channel, most of the adds specify a minimum joining sp amount. Can't say I've seen an add specifying a minimum requirement on the size of someone's epeen.
|
Forum Guy
|
Posted - 2010.11.17 21:29:00 -
[10]
Edited by: Forum Guy on 17/11/2010 21:30:35
Originally by: Pantload
I am firmly convinced that if CCP caves in and removes the Learning skills, it will only be a very short time before a new "This game is too hard for new players" argument will come up and something else will have to be nerfed/removed/shortened/made-easier.
*edit*
If this game is so hard for new players and so many of them quit...how come the game keeps getting bigger all the time? It's currently the biggest it's ever been and still growing. Just curious.
See you are using scaremongering tactics as usual.
Removing the learning skills has nothing to do with making the game easier. Not unless you Pants consider putting skills in the queue hard. But it has everything to do with getting rid of something that offers nothing of any real value. It's totally unnecessary and all it does is put a stumbling block in the path of new players that should be developing their characters in a logical manner.
As for people asking for the game to be made easier I just think that's bull. Less boring at the start but not easier.
|
|
|
Forum Guy
|
Posted - 2010.11.17 22:30:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Pantload
It's not scaremongering. It's cynicism. Why put the "as usual" part? As if you know me or anything about me. 
You should say what you mean. You simply don't want to have to train learning skills and you want the bonus they confer to be given to you with no investment of your time, isk, or patience.
I do sort of know you from past threads spanning back months.
I did say what I mean, just read the other posts in this thread. I've played this game since 2005 (with some breaks), I've always considered the learning skills to be just a time sink. The skill tree would work fine without them they are not necessary (you would have to compensate for their removal as far as training times go) even though I've learnt rank 3 learning skills to level 5 in the past.
But I do wonder why a few people like them, is it because they do put people off of this game, less people means less lag and lag has been an issue in this game for as long as I can remember.
Plus I've not heard a genuine good reason to keep them. Saying that if CCP gives in on learning skills (which I believe CCP have already said somewhere along the line that they were a mistake, or words to that effect)people will want the game made easier, I don't consider a genuine reason for keeping them, there's no facts to support that argument as far as I can see.
|
Forum Guy
|
Posted - 2010.11.19 02:23:00 -
[12]
Originally by: De'Veldrin
I stopped training my learning skills way back when I hit 4/3 and didn't train another one until I put in my carrier skill plan and Eve HQ said "Hey, I can make that shorter, just train these."
So I did.
But I have never felt like I have been behind the curve on anything from not having max learning skills.
I do have to agree with a previous poster. You saw the occasional whine from people about learning skills before they added remaps, but since they added them, people have become obsessed with training efficiency. We're not keeping score, folks. The first one to 465 million doesn't win or anything.
I don't think remaps has anything to do with it. The problem with learning skills got worse with the introduction of the character creation system we have at the moment. As these days you start with only very basic skills and nothing in any specialist role like mining or trader etc (you do have level 2 mining at the start but that's about it). Which means it takes longer than it used to actually be able to do something worthwhile ingame. It takes about 2 weeks just to get to the position where you used to start from, but the next two weeks would be a bit quicker than it used to be.
So the only way to speed things up a bit so you can actually do something other than mining in a frigate is to use the 1.6 mill train time bonus to learn the learning skills (at least a fair chunk of that training time bonus). Which is why the new character creation system has actually made things worse than they were before.
|
Forum Guy
|
Posted - 2010.11.19 11:52:00 -
[13]
There's another way to look at this:
If you started with 6 million isk to use as you wish when you create your character. With the skills that are ingame at the moment the vast majority of players would train all the learning skills making them pointless.
Which is why I say they are not necessary they don't really add much to the game they also are not like the other skills in the skill tree.
|
Forum Guy
|
Posted - 2010.11.19 14:25:00 -
[14]
Originally by: RaTTuS
I stand on the side that they should stay...
you don't need to train them to 5/5
4/3 or 4/4 is fine for most.
in fact I'd probably go with a different solution ... you are not able to train the tier 2 skills until your character has 5 mil SP
So you are in favour of slowing the training of new players to a snails pace. May I ask why that is?
|
Forum Guy
|
Posted - 2010.11.19 16:49:00 -
[15]
Originally by: RaTTuS
Originally by: Forum Guy
So you are in favour of slowing the training of new players to a snails pace. May I ask why that is?
it's not a snails pace, it's just slower than the max,
it will show people they need to train skills they need rather than skills they think they want.
Nobody thinks they want learning skills, people know the benefits of learning skills as the system stands at the moment. Plus the benefits of the learning skills can't be ignored so people are naturally going to want to do them as soon as possible.
Restricting how many they can do to slow their progress won't help the situation it'll just make it worse.
|
Forum Guy
|
Posted - 2010.11.19 17:08:00 -
[16]
Edited by: Forum Guy on 19/11/2010 17:11:09
Edited by: Forum Guy on 19/11/2010 17:08:37
Originally by: Aralyn Cormallen
And it will set you in far better stead for playing the game in the future for doing so, as you wont find yourself docked up because 'I can't possible undock while my weapons do 1% less damage than they possibily can, and my shields are 10% less strong than they possibly can be'.
Except it won't be just 1% or 10% difference it'll be more like 15% to 20% different plus a whole host of other useful support skills.
|
Forum Guy
|
Posted - 2010.11.23 02:56:00 -
[17]
Edited by: Forum Guy on 23/11/2010 03:02:57
Originally by: Ahaz Darkfall
Being a new player myself I do not see what all the complaining is about. Yes it takes months to train all learning skills to 5/5. but all learning skills to 4/5 is much much shorter and only takes a Few weeks. You only need the base attribute skills to 4 to train the rank 2 attribute skills. I have all base attribute skills to 4 learning to 5/5 and rank 2 attribute skills to 4/5 and it took less than 2 months with the x2 boost new characters get. I do plan on going back and finishing them up to 5/5 but for now the time it takes to get that last level 5 for each is not worth the 1 attribute point it gives for the time invested.
So you were happy to train learning skills that don't need to be there and you felt this was a good use of your time. A few weeks traing something at the start of a game just so that you can get started in that game. You could have actually trained something more useful in that time especially as the character creation system these days don't start you off with much. That 1.6 mill sp training bonus is not particularly great either especially when you consider you're starting at least 2 weeks behind people that made their characters on the older system.
Originally by: Ahaz Darkfall
It would be good to offset all the new high end skills, as the training time are ridiculous on some of them. There is nothing for new players to complain about when veterans are training skills that take several months to finish a single skill.
Seems like you want to speed up training even more than those that want to get rid of learning skills. Getting rid of the learning will only really speed the whole process up by about 3 month out of the 25+ year skill tree. Which is because most people learn them as soon as possible.
Lets say everyone learned them at the start the nett effect would be no different to not having them in the game and starting with those attribute from the start. Only difference is you would not have wasted 2 - 3 months learning skills that are really just a time-sink.
|
Forum Guy
|
Posted - 2010.11.23 04:20:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Pantload
insufferable whiner.
Strange that's what I always thought you were. That as well as from your older posts just a troll on most subjects.
|
Forum Guy
|
Posted - 2010.11.23 04:28:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Pantload
Originally by: Forum Guy
Originally by: Pantload
insufferable whiner.
Strange that's what I always thought you were. That as well as from your older posts just a troll on most subjects.
Yes indeed. The old "I know you are but what am I" defense. Fascinating.
My point stands. The game is to be enjoyed, not griped about. Love it or leave it, as they say.
For the record, I only troll whiner threads
And anything you disagree with is a whiner thread, I take it. That figures!
|
Forum Guy
|
Posted - 2010.11.25 04:34:00 -
[20]
Originally by: pigletto
Player 1 trains his learning skills, player 2 does not.
Nobody in their right mind would not train the learning skills, most people would train them to 5/4 as soon as they could. Rank 3 lvl 5 is debateable if it's even worth doing it's certainly not worth doing near the start.
Originally by: pigletto
Now, when we have reached this far in our (my) reasoning, we find out that 2m advantage in useful skills is pretty much nothing after your character exceeds age of 2 years.
I'd agree with this part, which also makes the learning skills pretty much a waste of time.
Originally by: pigletto
As far as players feeling out "gimped" and "hopelessly behind" if they do not train learning asap: its more a problem of not understanding the game, or the actual worth of investment. I¦d go as far and say that its actually a psychological effect, partially carried over from other games where attributes contribute more. Saying that you should not play at all without learning skills done, is actually same thing as you should not play at all since you simply can not catch up the sp of the player who started 2003, in my not so humble opinion.
This has never been the issue in relation to learning skills, if you think it is then you've missed the point.
Originally by: pigletto
put it frankly, many of the anti-learning skills arguments are downright idiotic, while some DO have points.
Anything in particular, this is just a general sweeping statement it does not mean much by itself.
Originally by: pigletto
conclusion: Only change learning skills need is to give 4 to all basic skills to new characters.
That's where your conclusion differs from mine. The fact is learning skills are responsible for this game losing players. Therefore surely this issue needs to be addressed.
|
|
|
Forum Guy
|
Posted - 2010.11.25 23:25:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Pantload
Originally by: Gallians
Nah, just kidding. Enjoy what this is: a day of victory for everyone.
For me: I get to have my friends actually play and an easier time introducing people to Eve
For CCP: The more fun people have, the more likely they are to stay, and only people that stay make CCP money.
For everyone: No gift is like the gift of SP!
A truly win win day for everyone in EVE. A rarity.
I'm actually fine with this decision except for one minor detail: The slightly reduced rate of training that will come with the change ( 2700 instead of 2772 SP/HR ). I know, I know, but can't resist splitting hairs on that one as it seems totally unnecessary for the proposed learning changes to have that side-effect.
Except it's not a side effect of removing the learning skills. It's just the decision CCP made on how to compensate for their removal.
|
Forum Guy
|
Posted - 2010.11.26 00:13:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Tau Cabalander
Originally by: Pantload
I'm actually fine with this decision except for one minor detail: The slightly reduced rate of training that will come with the change ( 2700 instead of 2772 SP/HR ). I know, I know, but can't resist splitting hairs on that one as it seems totally unnecessary for the proposed learning changes to have that side-effect.
5/5+5: -72 SP/hr
4/5+5: +27 SP/hr
4/4+5: +126 SP/hr
3/4+5: +225 SP/hr
Cons:
* the max training rate will be lower.
* those that trained 5/5 are the only ones with a lower rate
Pros:
* The SP refund may benefit those that trained 5/5 if they spend the SP in slow training skills.
I've started training Logic 5 on two 4/5 accounts with high int/mem, in order to cash-in on the refund.
So how many people wear +5 imps 24/7? People that use +5 imps usually have them on a jump clone for when they are not playing the game.
PvPers don't normally wear them, infact for PvP this is another plus point, no longer factoring in the loss of training implants. So PvPers can engage in what they like to do best without sacrificing their training speed.
My guess is CCP considered these things which is why they settled on +12.
|
|
|
| |
|